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Bicycle

From https://ciechanow.ski/bicycle/
todsacerdoti | 2023-03-28 | 3014

Comments:

scastiel

2023-03-28
Every post on this blog is so impressive! Love it!

BrianHenryIE

2023-03-28
Beautiful article.

There's a similar neat video, "Most People Don't Know How Bikes Work", where they fix the steering so the handlebars can only be turned left, and people then aren't able to turn left.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cNmUNHSBac

sha-3

2023-03-28
Great, this is the best way start the day!

marai2

2023-03-28
Pshh, I know how to ride a bicycle, why is ciechanowski writing an article about riding a bicycle?!

Holy moly!! I didn't realize I didn't know how I actually ride a bicycle!!

Obligatory sound track for this excellent post:

https://youtu.be/KwvWtZl2ICY

Brajeshwar

2023-03-28
You will love the interesting video, "Most People Don't Know How Bikes Work" by Veritasium - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cNmUNHSBac

GaryNumanVevo

2023-03-28
Another instant classic from Bartosz Ciechanowski!

graypegg

2023-03-28
This is such a well made explanation! Tons to learn from this. Good job!

lbussell

2023-03-28
This is the greatest explanation of two-wheeled vehicle dynamics I've ever seen. Anyone who rides a bicycle or motorcycle should read this whole thing!

margalabargala

2023-03-28
> The further away that line is from the center of mass, the easier it is for the force to rotate the object. In the following demonstration, you can apply two forces of the same magnitude to two identical boxes. The only difference is the distance to the center of mass at which these forces act:

> When the distance between the force-line and the center of mass is large, the box spins faster as well. That distance doesn’t change the acceleration of the box to the right and both boxes move with the same linear speed. However, that distance affects the angular acceleration of a box – the longer that arm, the faster the box spins.

This does not make sense to me. If the two forces are truly of equal magnitude, then shouldn't the one that is in-line with the center of mass accelerate it faster, since 100% of the force is being converted to linear momentum, while the off-center force is being split between increasing linear momentum and rotational momentum?

This would appear to violate the conservation of energy.

thallavajhula

2023-03-28
I saw the domain name "ciechanow.ski" and immediately upvoted it even before I opened it. The quality of posts by Bartosz is just next level.

ftxbro

2023-03-28
Also see the work of Jason Moore (referenced in that blog) for whom it seems modeling bicycle dynamics in open source scientific python has been a huge passion for him for more than ten years. I remember in the scientific python development in those days there were these guys from like the hubble optics correction division and like the asml metrology department and then this one weird bicycle guy lol.

https://moorepants.github.io/dissertation/

https://github.com/moorepants

davnicwil

2023-03-28
I've always loved that little fact about having to initially turn the handlebars the opposite way to initiate a turn.

It's pretty much impossible to believe without thinking it through, and yet everyone naturally intuits it.

It's one of my favourite examples of how the brain can just 'feel' forces and make the right adjustments incredibly fast. So amazing.

yeknoda

2023-03-28
yay

eshnil

2023-03-28
Another great interactive explanation.

I wish physics teachers start using geometric product of vectors, instead of the cross product. This allows forces and torques to be combined into a single concept "Forque". Really, translations are just rotations around infinity and rotations are just composition of two reflections. If we allow the algebra to take care of rotations, physics becomes a lot simpler.

not_the_fda

2023-03-28
A great book on the science of bicycles is "Bicycling Science" from MIT press. https://www.amazon.com/Bicycling-Science-Press-Gordon-Wilson...

eDameXxX

2023-03-28
I see new post from Bartosz, I upvote. Simple as that.

adverbly

2023-03-28
I always find it interesting to think about bicycles and just how recently they were invented.

Compare bicycles with steel making, for example. Steel making happened thousands of years ago. The modern bicycle was what - under 200 years ago?

Bikes seem like such a primitive technology, and yet as this article demonstrates, it takes a lot of engineering to design even primitive products.

It makes me wonder how many other simple or primitive products are out there which have yet to be discovered.

davidw

2023-03-28
Bicycles are truly beautiful machines. They are the most energy efficient form of transportation. You can travel pretty long distances with not that many calories.

umvi

2023-03-28
ciechanow.ski pages are usually super performant for me, but this one is super laggy, especially widgets with the bicycle man/mesh. Anyone else experiencing this?

wiredfool

2023-03-28
This is a really impressive article -- he went quite far into the physics of bikes and wheels and didn't say anything that I could point to as being wrong.

martopix

2023-03-28
Fantastic for teaching high school physics

tambourine_man

2023-03-28
If you don’t know Bartosz Ciechanowski‘s site yet, checkout his archives.

Be careful if you have deadlines for today though, you may be there for a long and awesome time.

kazinator

2023-03-28
Nice demo of countersteering. When you jerk the slider quickly to the right, you can see that the right handlebar briefly lunges forward (left steer) before the steering recovers to the right. It's still noticeable with smaller/slower movements of the slider, but not as much.

NGC404

2023-03-28
Somewhat related:

How many neurons does it take to ride a bycicle?

https://paradise.caltech.edu/~cook/papers/TwoNeurons.pdf

jjcm

2023-03-28
Bartosz is the quality bar I aspire to when I write my blog posts. I've always added interactivity in mine, but they in no way approach the detail and polish that he puts into them.

naillo

2023-03-28
Awesome stuff as always. Don't forget to support his patreon: https://www.patreon.com/ciechanowski

thomasfl

2023-03-28
The most important fact is that riding a bicycle is 3 to 5 times more energy efficient than walking. Depending on the road, bicycle, terrain and weight of the rider. Riding a bicycle is the most efficient self-powered means of transportation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_performance

thunderbong

2023-03-28
All the posts on ciechanow.ski are mind-blowing. The graphics, the gradual process of explaining from simple fundamental concepts to the complete picture.

How I wish our schools would teach like this.

asah

2023-03-28
electric bikes have quietly revolutionized nyc delivery, with food deliveries now going halfway across manhattan and between boroughs, no big deal.

gowld

2023-03-28
Great articles, no ads, except this one:

Voluntary contribution of $3 or more per article, via Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/ciechanowski

(Not sure what "per article" means though. How to donate for past articles? Will I get billed whenever a new article drops?)

lom

2023-03-28
I’m not even done with reading, but i’ve been very interested in bikes and how they work for quite some time now and I can confidentially say that this is on of the best writeups there is. Thanks to the author for making this

auggierose

2023-03-28
Wow. Beautiful piece of art, but I am not going to read it. For someone who has, is the length of the article proportional to the gained knowledge, or could that be expressed much more succinct?

loeg

2023-03-28
The first animation is sort of wrong. To turn right on a bicycle, you actually steer slightly left (and vice versa). It's very jarring to see the wheel rotated in the same direction of the turn at extreme lean angles -- if you do that in the real world, you'll crash.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

dudzik

2023-03-28
How did he create the animations?

azibi

2023-03-28
Also worth mentioning bicycle related is the lifework of Sheldon Brown: https://www.sheldonbrown.com

Not fancy looking, but very interesting.

smoyer

2023-03-28
> Since our planet is very heavy, the acceleration of the Earth and the wall attached to it is effectively non-existent.

If the applied force is anchored to the ground too, if doesn't matter how heavy the planet is.

ubj

2023-03-28
Beautifully illustrated and brilliantly explained.

Derek Muller (Veritasium) on YouTube has a related video diving into the mechanics of bicycle riding. It shows what happens if you prevent the rider from performing the countersteer before leaning into a turn [1].

[1]: https://youtu.be/9cNmUNHSBac

wintogreen74

2023-03-28
>> Once mastered, the simple action of pedaling to move forward and turning the handlebars to steer makes bike riding an effortless activity.

Except you don't really turn the handlebars to steer, movement is far more than just pedaling and it's never an effortless activity if done right. Everything else in this sentence is correct though ;)

nntwozz

2023-03-28
Immediately made me think of Steve Jobs and this great clip:

"Computers are like a bicycle for our minds." https://youtu.be/ob_GX50Za6c

jagrsw

2023-03-28
Hmm.. the acceleration part.

E=(mv^2)/2 - so we put more energy accelerating the bike from 10-20m/s than 0-10m/s, no?

Yet a=F/m - which suggests the acceleration is proportional to force, which would suggest that applying force F for time t should speed you up 0-10m/s the same way as 10-20m/s?

I suspect the force applied to the pedals is not the force which is acting on the bike (counter-force of the ground-bike system) and this second force is somehow relatable to the current speed of the bike, no?

comment_ran

2023-03-28
Hey there fellow bikers!

I've been having some trouble adjusting the tension in my spokes lately. It seems like no matter how much I try, I just can't seem to get it right. Does anyone have any tips or tricks they could share with me?

On a related note, I've been wondering about the differences between mountain bikes and road bikes. One thing I've noticed is that when you take a sharp turn on a mountain bike, you tend to move the bike away from your body. But on a road bike, you maintain that alignment with your body and the frame. It's fascinating how these small differences can have such a big impact on the way we ride.

What do you all think? Have you noticed any other differences between these two types of bikes? Let's chat and share our experiences!

zerr

2023-03-28
It might not be intentional, but does anyone think that this article might be a well executed act of trolling?

skeltoac

2023-03-28
Wonderful work! While I was reading, the HN points went up 500% and my battery fell by 50%.

ertucetin

2023-03-28
I saw the link to this article on Twitter and came here to double-check that it is indeed in the top 5

duckmysick

2023-03-28
Relevant link that I saw on HN earlier this week: someone asks people to sketch bicycles and then renders the sketches.

https://www.gianlucagimini.it/portfolio-item/velocipedia/

> Little I knew this is actually a test that psychologists use to demonstrate how our brain sometimes tricks us into thinking we know something even though we don’t.

> I collected hundreds of drawings, building up a collection that I think is very precious. There is an incredible diversity of new typologies emerging from these crowd-sourced and technically error-driven drawings. A single designer could not invent so many new bike designs in 100 lifetimes and this is why I look at this collection in such awe.

m3kw9

2023-03-28
Surprised that the reason the frame is hollow is for structural reason rather than to just save weight.

NickC25

2023-03-28
This guy's content is seriously top notch. His recent article on Sound from a few months ago was astounding and probably the best article I've seen posted here.

fnord77

2023-03-28
the animation is wrong. It shows the wheel of the bike turning into the turn as the rider leans over.

In reality, the wheel turns slightly away from the turn. This is called "counter steering"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

mariopt

2023-03-28
Super intuitive learning physics this way

matsemann

2023-03-28
I wrote my master thesis on optimizing bicycle wheels / spokes. I actually see I'm cited in the phd he cites, quite a fun surprise!

This is a great article. It showcases lots of the "simple, but surprisingly advanced" things surrounding bicycles. Which was what got me hooked in the first place. The visualization of how you have to turn right to go left is excellent. I've mentioned that fact multiple times here on HN, it's not commonly known, you just "do it" when you bike! And it explains why you sometimes can feel the curb "sucking" you towards it when you try to avoid it: you unconsciously avoid turning the wheel towards it, but that actually makes it so that you're unable to actually steer away from it!

JoeAltmaier

2023-03-28
Some (good) e-cars burn ~250Wh per mile.

Humans burn something like 750Kc per hour on a bike, and go 15 miles

A Wh is ~1Kc (0.8:1 but ok)

That makes bikes, what, 5X more efficient?

photochemsyn

2023-03-28
This is another awesome post, although it doesn't address the one thing about bicycles I can never remember - which of the pedals has a reverse-threaded attachment to the pedal crank arm, and what's the complete force-based explanation for this necessity?

I'm not even sure if the force responsible for this is friction-related, or torque related, or some combination of both (probably the latter). The force is transmitted to the chaindrive in an off-axis manner, but the pedal itself is further removed from the axis, so when you push down on the pedal axis that's ahead of the bottom bracket axis - one side will tighten clockwise from the pedal's perspective, and the other side will tighten anti-clockwise.

Wow I got it right after going through this post! That's a first, though I'm still not sure I got all the forces right.

hn_throwaway_99

2023-03-28
What a phenomenal explanation of forces. I wish I had this when I took my first physics class in college. I thought it was particularly excellent at explaining "how much the wall knows to push back", which is something I didn't quite grok (but just accepted) back in college:

> You may wonder how the wall knows how much back-force to apply, so let’s look at the interaction between these two objects up close and in slow motion. As we apply the force, the box actually starts accelerating into to the wall, pushing its surface to the right:

> As the box moves to the right, it compresses the molecules in the wall, which create a spring-like force that pushes the box back. If that force is too small to balance the pushing force, the box will continue to move to the right, which compresses the wall even more, creating an even larger push-back force.

bilekas

2023-03-28
Okay this is amazing. After checking the sources - I don't see any 3rd party libs.. This to my eyes looks like homegrown js (sources aren't transpiled).

As a fellow cyclist I've always thought about the physics on rides, it's why changing up the gear and getting the difference feels so good, but I don't think I could ever go into this kind of detail.

Beautiful creative work. Amazing effort. Top

hyperthesis

2023-03-28
funfact: The reason pedals are threaded in opposite directions is precession. https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession_(mechanical)

xpe

2023-03-28
> On their own, these dynamic forces exerted by the rider’s legs barely affect anything about the distribution of the ground reaction forces – one can’t make oneself heavier by just pressing harder on the ground.

I'm not sure about this. Yes, static weight _is_ fixed, but a rider can vary their dynamic downforce considerably. Skilled off-road riders (i.e. mountain bikers) vary their dynamic downforce for various reasons, including traction.

As always, I'm up for a discussion on this; it is possible the conventional mountain bike wisdom is a butchered version of the physics.

simonebrunozzi

2023-03-28
I dream of building a bike with 1-2 dozen little wheels, and this frees up the design of the frame completely. Power would be given by little electric motors. The single point of failure represented by a single wheel would not be a problem anymore.

xpe

2023-03-28
A few observations: (1) Don't skip the textual explanations; (2) My favorite part is the wheel and spoke analysis; (3) Never stop improving your biking skills: it isn't just your legs; use your whole body!

P.S. For offroad riders (i.e. mountain biking): some things to look up if you don't know them: the "attack" position; the "cockpit"; pumping; row and anti-row motions.

ithkuil

2023-03-28
> and even the seemingly basic idea that, for a bicycle to be self-stable, it needs to turn the handlebars into the fall, has not yet been proven.

is it proven at least that "the bike needs to turn into the fall (the handlebars moving not necessarily being the cause of the bicycle turning)"?

femto

2023-03-28
Nice.

I really wanted the article to close its opening statement that "There is something delightful about riding a bicycle", by closing with the initial simulation, but with the rider embedded in an infinite procedurally generated landscape of rolling green hills and small villages.

taneq

2023-03-28
“To understand a bicycle, you must first understand Newtonian dynamics.”

dirtyid

2023-03-28
Impressive as always. Any other talent putting out this tier of projects to subscribe to?

hanoz

2023-03-28
I don't understand the first three-arrowed diagram with the wall. Why two pushing arrows, at the front and the back of the crate but only one pushing from the wall to the crate, seemingly unbalanced?

helsinki

2023-03-28
This article just made the global adderall shortage much worse.

unrealp

2023-03-28
Riding bicycle - as a skill is awkward and fascinating. It was established at very old times and so has remained. Imagine bicycles were invented today, its a product that nobody would buy. It takes lot of learning, falling, injuries, and for a lay person it looks awkward and risky.

If we generalize this, we are missing out on some skills, which are awkward but which our bodies and nervous system can learn? but perhaps we are not trying to learn thinking its risky?

fdr

2023-03-28
Not sure if this is common knowledge by now, but one of the mind blowing things about this blogger is he writes these WebGL interactions, seemingly by hand, no framework. Like, best I can tell, keying in the vertices. See https://ciechanow.ski/js/bicycle.js

Yhippa

2023-03-28
Of all the classes I had the hardest time grokking, it was physics. I really wish I had visualizations like this growing up to help me out.

pranshuchittora

2023-03-28
Mind blowing simulation.

jokoon

2023-03-28
I remember Andrew Ng saying that there is no AI that can ride a bicycle

globular-toast

2023-03-28
I used to like thinking about things this way. When I first started using computers I started to question how it all worked. It started with high-level and vague questions like "how does an operating system work" and as I learnt more and more it went deeper and more specific until I eventually learnt how a transistor works. That was enough for me.

But as I've become older I'm less interested in it and more willing to accept things "just work". I'm pretty sure that no part of the bicycle was invented by thinking about it this way. This is kind of a reverse engineering exercise. The inventors of the bicycle just knew that if you sat on a moving wheel somehow you could balance. They knew that if you put something soft around the wheel it would feel smoother etc. Nobody was sitting there thinking about crates moving and suddenly thought, what if it was two wheels with a person on it?

I don't know. Maybe it's because I already knew all of this stuff too (I'm an avid cyclist who has studied Newtonian physics). But I found this one a bit exhausting.

alexpotato

2023-03-28
> It may seem obvious once pointed out, but the two elliptical regions under the two tires are the only places where the bicycle interacts with the road and almost all of the rider-controlled forces have to act through them.

In the book Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson, there is a quote that goes something like this:

"Most cars have tires that only contact the road in an area about the size of your tongue. Hiro's car had big radial tires where the contact area was the size of a fat person's thigh."

invpix

2023-03-28
Is this a proof of human created quality over AI generation?

Seriously though, wonderful work.

ck2

2023-03-28
Wow I love the sliders.

Now do running?!

https://fellrnr.com/wiki/Running_Form#Running_Movements

I'd love to be able to see a runner in motion like the bicycle and then use sliders to adjust legs and arm movements with physics applied correctly.

mkluge

2023-03-28
I think I found a minor mistake. Close to the beginning, there is a paragraph "The further away that line is from the center of mass, the easier it is for the force to rotate the object. In the following demonstration, you can apply two forces of the same magnitude to two identical boxes. The only difference is the distance to the center of mass at which these forces act:". Below that is a simulation of two boxes.

If you apply the same force over the same amount of time to both boxes, the same amount of energy goes into both boxes. As one box is rotating faster, it has a higher rotational energy than the other box. As both systems (boxes) got identical amounts of energy this means, that the slower rotating box should move faster to the right because more energy goes into this movement. Becaus E_input has always to be the sum of E_forward and E_rotation. Am I wrong and why?

starbird3000

2023-03-28
Reminds me a bit of this old 1970 article in Physics Today: The Stability of the Bicycle. https://physicstoday.scitation.org/doi/abs/10.1063/1.3022064

souvlakee

2023-03-28
Browser died.

fatih-erikli

2023-03-28
I like what you choose as the shifters, shimano 105, which the most well functioning and one tier less expensive than the most expensive one

Cyphase

2023-03-28
I was messing with GPT-4 and pasted the HN front page with a prompt. In the response, it mentioned "a creative visual explanation of bicycles". Based on just the text "Bicycle (ciechanow.ski)". It really had me going for a minute until I checked the archives at the site and saw similar articles from before it's training cutoff.

I asked it (with no context), 'What is "Bicycle (ciechanow.ski)" referring to?':

Response: "Bicycle (ciechanow.ski)" is referring to a blog post by Bartosz Ciechanowski, a software engineer and blogger. In this particular post, titled "Bicycle", he provides an interactive, in-depth explanation and visualization of the physics and mechanics behind the bicycle, covering topics such as steering, gyroscopic effects, trail, and more. The post aims to provide a comprehensive understanding of why bicycles are stable and how they function.

In a different response it volunteered the correct URL.